Hi Sleevesoco. There is a problem with your recent edits about XC2 quest enemies. In fact Quest Enemy means that defeating an enemy is explicitly required in a quest objective. The enemies you have added appear during a quest but defeating them is not required or optional. If you add all enemies implies during a quest, Quest Enemy and Quest Exclusive Enemy become equivalent and thus redundant. Conversely, this means that Quest Enemy encompasses also non-Quest Exclusive Enemies, because a quest objective can require to defeat a normal minor enemy!
Hey WA. I don't want to seem dismissive but I think your making this needlessly complicated. What you are saying does not fit the name quest enemy or quest exclusive enemy. Quest enemy, based on the name, defines a enemy that is in some shape or form connected to a quest. A quest exclusive enemy means it only shows up in a quest. If we are going to go by your definitions then I think you should change the name or relax because it is not redundant. Both lists have a lot of overlap but that's because most enemies in XC2 are quest exclusive. Also if a quest requires you to attack a normal minor enemy then that would make it a quest enemy that is also normal minor but not quest exclusive because it is now a quest requirement. Please, get back to me and lets have a discussion on this because I really think this could help the naming conventions we have on the wikia/fandom.
It is not my decision nor my definition, it is what the community of this wiki has decided in years, and this is how Quest Enemy page and category are already working for XC1 and XCX. A decision made by the community moreover because this is not an official/in-game expression/concept but something we choose for the enemies pages organisation of the wiki. About the Quest Exclusive Enemy concept, I think you did not well read or well understand my message, I do not deal with it, I only mention twice as a comparison for your use of Quest Enemy and that Quest Enemy can have normal minor enemies not only Quest Exclusive, the Quest Exclusive Enemy concept is anyway clear, no problem with this one here. There might be old discussions in the forum if you want to know more. If you still disagree or want to propose a change or to modify something about QE concept, you can start a new discussion on the forum if you want, other people could come and comment.
Ok well I didn’t know you all had agreed on this already. I would like to open a discussion but I am worried it will just be like last time and I’ll wait and wait and because no one cares no one will reply and I’ll be ignored. Look, I’ll fix the page later WA but can you please listen to just one big request I have? I really like these games and want to help players with them but I don’t like the president your setting here. If there was some sort of rule list or format guide for this stuff I would be a lot happier. But the president your setting is for everyone who wants to do edits they have to look through page after page of forums just to know what to do. You seem very knowledgeable about the formatting so can you please make this easier for us all. Because it’s very crushing when I work on my own time for 4 hours to make or edit a page and you tell me it’s not formatted right and I have to change it because I didn’t read a forum from 5 years ago buried in the 7th page. Is that really how you want to run things around here? Because if your content with that then it’s no wonder no one sticks around. I’m not angry or spiteful I just wish it was easier for me to help out and you didn’t constantly have to breath down my neck.
Hi Sleevesoco, thank you for your new contribution. I would just like to ask you not to change the categories order on the Species pages, it is better to have first XC1 cat grouped, then XC2 ones, etc. Also, it is not necessary to relink same quests, one linked is sufficient. Thank you.
Hi Sleevesoco, thank you for your very helpful contributions on this wiki and your globally well respect of the article formatting, etc. Just please do not forget to explain or leave an edit summary for major change/edition on pages (for minor ones, you can select the minor edit option when editing). I know that anyone, myself included, sometimes forgets to do it, but it is much better for the community and the article histories, that is why I am just pointing out and asking but not warning!
The Nopon (enemy) page should have been beforehand proposed, nevertheless I have deleted it because this page is non pertinent for three essential points. First of all its content can be just added or mentioned in the Nopon#Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Challenge Battle Mode or Challenge Battle Enemy (XC2) pages. Moreover these Nopon enemies are just special enemies for the Challenge Battle Mode, meaning they are not typical enemies of the XC2 universe, they even have nothing to do with this universe (Challenge Battle Mode is a simple mode and (the Land of Challenge) somewhat seen as a kind of "parallel dimension", we should probably write a special section on this page mentioning the "special" enemies only dedicated to this mode...). Then, the Nopon who are battled in the XC2 universe are already amongst Lindwurm, Driver (enemy), etc. Thank you for your understanding.
No worries WA and your welcome. I guess I should have looked around better before I made that page. Those pages you listed seem to fill the role my page did. I also hope you can understand where I'm coming from but I don't like having to disscuss things on this fandom (even thought I probably should in some cases) as it takes too long to get an answer. Due to graduate school I only have a limited time on this fandom each year so I try to make the most of my time. For now I'm going to contiune editing the species pages of XC2 and I'll be sure to put in summaries more. Also, one last thing sorry for the Igna goof. I have no idea why those UMs got deleted and I'm glad you caught that.
Was that to add data you've already added to the Enemy infoboxes? If so, that data will get added to the XC2 Enemies List page the next time I run my script. If it's not, then your changes will be overwritten the next time I run the script.
The reason I'm asking is, I'd like to coordinate with you so the script is as helpful as possible and doesn't get in your way.
Yeah I did do an edit. I am not 100% done with editing the page yet but will be done soon. All the edits I did were just to fill in any gaps in enemy info. So like if an enemy's level was not listed I added that or if the region was not listed I added that to the page etc. I did not do anything outside of that.
Also, on a side note I deleted some non-enemy entities (an npc and a blade you can not fight) that made there way into the list probably because of a minor fault in your progrm but WiseAdventurer added them back in. In my next edit can you maybe pass along that I am not intentionally deleting enemys just getting rid of npcs and similar stuff to him/her?
Oh wait I just realized what you mean now. Well I did do some edits to some enemys but not for others. If enemys lacked info I added to there infobox but other times the info was there but did not appear in the list because boss enemys like Akos would have multiple battles and only the first battle would appear on the list so added info from other battles to the list and also light formating stuff I edited from the list like changing minor enemys to normal enemys and having the - between levels have spaces between. Anyways, I will change my efforts to the enemy infoboxes instead. Is it okay if I change all instances of minor enemy to normal enemy? I wont change the tag just the field in the infobox.
Sorry, I forgot to mention my script isn't smart enough to include data from more than one infobox on a page. (And I can't think of a way to make it that smart.)
"Normal enemy" does sound better to me than "minor enemy", but a terminology change like that should probably be discussed in the Forums first. That way if people object to the change, you don't put in a lot of work that gets reverted.
Do you remember the specific NPCs and non-fightable Blade you removed? The list of pages I used is based on the categories the pages are in, so I'd like to look at the categories on those pages. If they're categorized correctly, I'll just manually remove them from the page list the next time I run the script.
As for WA's reversion of your edit, I'll need to look at his edit summary again. It's late here and I'm sleepy, so I'll look into that tomorrow.
Akatsuki is a little weird because you could argue that it is an enemy maybe. You do fight its driver with Akatsuki helping him but Akatsuki can never be targeted as a fightable enemy in the battle. So I don't know it's you guys call on that one.
Also you don't need to view my edit I just don't want to seem like I was deleting stuff for the heck of it to WiseAdventurer because I don't want to look like some random vandalizer.
No, we never suppose or think such a thing. Do not be wrong if an admin writes to you, any admin's message is not a warn! Here, the edit summary I left is an advice (note with "please", "thank you"), so do not take it as a warn, it is not one, if I wanted to warn, I would write a message on your wall and be explicit. Note that, if you take a more careful look, it is not a reverted edit, the info you added is not removed (of course), but my edit is mainly a formatting fix. By extension, if you really did wrong or we have a doubt about what you edited, we write a message on the user's wall to ask, advise, suggest, help or warn. So no worries! Here, it is a kind community. Also I probably did not pay more attention to those "enemies" you removed, just by considering the huge work of UB on the table, it looked weird to me to see them removed.
Since you often edit tables or infoboxes, I highly suggest you to use the "source mode" edition instead of the default "visual mode", this allows you to see the full page format and to avoid involuntary mistakes with tables/infoboxes formatting (like for aynone editing them in "visual mode", technical wiki issues plus sometimes automatic typos). (It is a suggested help note not a warn! ;) )
The issue with those pages was that somebody added them to subcategories of Category:XC2 Species, which normally only include enemies. Specifically, Fadhail and Lassa are filed under Category:Ardainian Soldiers, Akatsuki under Category:Brionac, and Siren under Category:Artifices. I removed Fadhail and Lassa from the soldier category and added a note to the category page. I left Akatsuki and Siren in their categories for now (there might be some weird management stuff we need to do with these), and all four have been removed from the enemy page.
Thank you WiseAdventurer for seeing it from my perspective. You guys seem really cool and nice. I will continue to add any missing info were I can and I will change the - so that there are spaces between the - in the level tag (because that is the proper way). I will keep the minor enemy and normal enemy category name the way it is listed for now but you guys should decide on one or the other. Keep in mind normal enemy is used more than minor enemy. I will respond here again when I am done or significant progress has been reached.
Backing up a bit, it looks like you figured this out Sleeves, but I'll mention this for the benefit of others who might be reading.
My script doesn't edit the wikicode that's already on the page. Instead, it generates completely new wikicode every time it's run. I then copy that new wikicode to the page, replacing what's there. As a result, any changes made to the page which aren't also made to the infoboxes on the source pages (enemy pages in this case) are lost.
Thanks for hunting down the problem, LB. I'll manually remove Akatsuki and Siren the next time I run the script.
(Side note: Broniac are not a species, they're an organization. This is yet another reason we should reconsider our use of the term "species" on this wiki.)
Sleeves: you're right, we do need to standardize on either "normal enemy" or "minor enemy". I need to gather some data first, but I'll start a Forum discussion about that soon.
I'd also like people's thoughts on the best time to run the script again. Should I go ahead and run it soon, or wait until most of the missing data is added to the source pages?
Alrighty I finally finished editing the enemies. UnnamedBonus, you can run your program again and the list should look a lot nicer. Did you guys come to an agreement on minor or normal enemy being the label for non-UM/bosses? If you guys want to go one way or the other I can go back through the enemies and edit them so they follow whatever we decide. I also checked if your program missed any enemies and I couldn't find any (that were labeled ) that it missed.
I also want to list some strange or anomolus things I noticed:
vengeful zadazan the enemy and zadazan the npc have their own pages but should be merged since they are the same character
I am almost certain Roiba Igna and Jang Quadwings are QEE's but are listed as normal enemys
woal noss and alyf crog are challenge mode enemys that could be UM's or possibly normal enemies but just the first species of there kind in xenoblade.
Karlin Skeeter is the only enemy with no nation, region, or level listed.. So I have no idea what this thing looks like or where it is.
Apologies for the delay. I've run the script again. The results are here.
You have done great work on this, Sleeves. Thank you so much for your efforts. Also, I encourage you to join us in the Forums. Everyone's input is welcome there.
Regarding the Karlin Skeeter, I'm guessing it's a mistake. There is a Karlin Skwaror which does have info, so I bet someone got Skeeters and Skwarors confused.
I'll be happy to run the script again in the future, either over all the enemies or on a specific list of them. I'd also be happy to use the script to generate similar lists about other areas of the Xenoblade games.
No problem and glad I could help. In the future I will probably ask you again to run the scipt because I was not done completly with editing the enemies. This first run was just to fill in any missing parts or fix any improperly formated parts. The next order of buisness is to check enemy level and location and add or change information about thoe where need be.
I also got some ideas for this scipt of yours like running it on the missions or quests in XCX and XC2 so we can have a complete list of quests/missions like how some people (myself included) have wanted. We could also make lists for items, collectables, all sorts of stuff really. Having an entire list of these things in one place is good for us so we can spot errors and strange things to improve the wikia.
Also, thanks for wanting my input in the forums. I probably will be making an effort to comment there more but a part of me also doesn't want to because sometimes too much disscussion is a bad thing and leads to stuff never getting done. I don't want to get boged down by the politics and back and forth kind of stuff. I just want stuff to get done. Not saying that kind of stuff should stop this is just for me.
Oooh, those are all good ideas. I really like the idea of using lists to spot errors.
As far as implementing those ideas goes, you or anyone else please feel free to post a message to my wall or in the Forums. I spent a lot of time creating this script, so I want it to be used.
I understand what you mean about too much discussion. A lot of times I think we've almost gotten to the point where no one can do anything without asking permission first. Someday I'd like to see if we can change that, but it may be that we're too big of a community for anything else to work.
I do want to say, however, that if there are any politics here, I haven't noticed them. My experience has been that people agree or disagree with each idea based on its merits, not on who is proposing it.